Curse

AtomicMew · Jan 19, 2012, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Build

In your free slot, I would definitely include a second rit: SOGM or ST offensive hybrid. I prefer ST generally, since it requires less micro.

I would drop the discord/curse in favor of an EA fire nuker (or shatterstone water nuker if you're going up against fire immunes). Another option is a thunderclap air nuker, but I don't think it is as strong. You can fit a second copy of fall back here quite easily as well. The only things worth bringing from the curse line really is weaken armor and maybe MoP if you're willing to micro.

PurpleFission · Jan 19, 2012, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Small history lesson, when 7 hero builds was launched there was a build competition in Raisu palace. In first place came Airway, second place RoJ Heroway, third place Waterway (almost identical to airway and only playable by a primary ele really) and in fourth and fifth place came spirits \ discord \ minions variants. Airway is nerfed, RoJ Heroway only really works for melee and waterway is tied to a primary ele in order to be played proficiently.

Adding in the armor reduction which means you can bring Deathly Swarm and discordway is starting to look like a top contender.

oh wow, waterway. I've never heard of any of these bars except rojway which is only useful in SoO and areas with undead, otherwise stacking multiple roj nukers is a completely bad idea. never heard of this 'competition', but ive ran with many different bars and anything revolving around an air ele, especially pre nerf, seems extremely inferior to abusing the OP mesmer by running 3-5 mesmer heroes with straight up esurge.

Gabs88 · Jan 19, 2012, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Basically both air, water and discord revolves around the same thing, an AP caller. Air and waterway used EBSOH in order to get more effect.

RoJ heroway on the other hand is about ball and spike in stead.

Personally I've also tested up to 7 mesmers in the same team and I figured they're the most effective with 2. 3 is also very good but from 4 and up there's a falloff in effectiveness due to stacking of energy management, disrupts and trigger on actions. And more importaintly there's a limit to how effective AOE damage is, because at some point the big ball dies instantly anyhow. And then you're gonna want strong single target for the clean up as well.

Improvavel · Jan 19, 2012, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

lolwut? Death Magic is arguably in the top 3 most useful attributes of guild wars.

How many minion masters do you need?

After the minions, Death magic is quite useless.

Discord on Soul Reaping would be much better for the purpose of bringing multiple copies of Discord.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

The only reason discord is still around is because of its bar compression, past popularity and unwillingness to switch from a build that they are accustomed to running even though its fallen as a top tier build.

Its called lag (not the connection latency version).

When some people were discording everything in the game, there were people that were just discovering or never heard of Sabway.

I had a few friends that insisted it was impossible to do TotPK without a full b/p and heroes would be slaughtered...

If one says that discordway revolving around 2 minion masters (one main, one half) and AP caller (AP+FH+EVAS+3rd PVE-only skill is a powerful bar to be exact) is the best build, yes, that is totally unnecessary, but no harm to slap a discord on a generic necromancer utility bar (it isn't as if your aren't tossing dozens of conditions and hexes on some poor sod to start with).

Jeydra · Jan 20, 2012, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

7HPS and RoJway were around long before the update and don't use Discord.

They're also clearly subpar, though.

History thread here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...475472p11.html

It should be pointed out though that the times in that thread have way more to do with player skill than individual build.

Dzjudz · Jan 21, 2012, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

They're also clearly subpar, though.

History thread here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...475472p11.html

It should be pointed out though that the times in that thread have way more to do with player skill than individual build.

People should stop referring to that thread. It's for one mission, and about 3 serious people entered.

Anyway, if you want something a little more focused on direct damage than 7HPS, take a look at this.

Gabs88 · Jan 21, 2012, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

People should stop referring to that thread. It's for one mission, and about 3 serious people entered.

Anyway, if you want something a little more focused on direct damage than 7HPS, take a look at this.

That's not even a build. You're just listing all the possible variations and making weird swaps in the default setup. I mean Pain of Disenchantment Curse + Prot over a MM, are you drunk? Thats the kind of choice you only make in order to feel like an unique snowflake instead of dealing with reality.

Dzjudz · Jan 21, 2012, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Fewer minions to slow down and screw up balling

. How is it not a build, when 7 heroes are listed?

Gabs88 · Jan 21, 2012, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Fewer minions to slow down and screw up balling

. How is it not a build, when 7 heroes are listed?

Because 10 heroes and 500 variations are listed. And you use flagging to avoid heroes screwing up balling.

Dzjudz · Jan 21, 2012, 04:44 PM // 16:44

You do realise that the left column of 7 heroes is the team right? The ones on the right are optionals for people who like to use SoGM (slow and not for hero AI) and MM (speed and balling issues) for example. The 500 variations is a little exaggerated. The ESurges can take Fall Back and Flesh of My Flesh, and the RoJs can take Fall Back, Heaven's Delight, Strength of Honor. It's all basic hero skill variation, nothing to be afraid of. I'd suggest you try it instead of the build in post #23.

The Drunkard · Jan 21, 2012, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Been messing around with the build planner a bit and ATM im at this

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2117/currentl.png

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Anyone got a good idea about what to use the last slots for? Got a full set of mercs so can grab anything from another nec to mes to SOGM rit but unsure which would be best right now.

Swap out inpetitude for Stolen Speed, add either another discord nec or an IV nec

Jeydra · Jan 23, 2012, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

People should stop referring to that thread. It's for one mission, and about 3 serious people entered.

Anyway, if you want something a little more focused on direct damage than 7HPS, take a look at this.

Ignore the competition in that thread if you want and just look at the screenshots on their own merit. If that teambuild survives severe stress, skipping mobs, intentional overaggro and still packs three copies of "Fall Back!" on non-Mesmer heroes, what do I need Panic / Shared Burden Mesmers and more RoJ Monks for? And if you look at the real difference between the two builds - the Invoke Ele(s) - and consider the fact that Invoke is now nerfed, it's not that much of a leap to see a Discord Necro as a replacement.

7HPS is not a great teambuild, and neither is RoJway (for player Elementalists at least).

By the way I find it really annoying that some people say things like "the MM / spirits / SoGM slows you down" but nobody posts clears with caster primaries and no minions or spirits that aren't easily beaten (often by massive margins) by teambuilds that do include them.

Gabs88 · Jan 23, 2012, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

7HPS is not a great teambuild, and neither is RoJway (for player Elementalists at least).

Yeah, 7 HPS kinda went through on the great category after I stopped voting it down for beeing crap and left GW a while. RoJ Heroway on the other hand definitely belongs in the great category if you play it with a assassin \ dervish or warrior.

Quote:

By the way I find it really annoying that some people say things like "the MM / spirits / SoGM slows you down" but nobody posts clears with caster primaries and no minions or spirits that aren't easily beaten (often by massive margins) by teambuilds that do include them.

I agree, if anything was clear after the 7 hero competition it was that SoS and MM heroes had earned their spots. SoGM too in most cases.

mortenya · Jan 23, 2012, 08:57 PM // 20:57

the only thing i don't like about a SoGM hero is that it feels like spirit's are only up for every other fight if you're moving fast.

for minions, i don't really notice them preventing me from balling, since they're often a bubble away from me when i engage.

Ritbot · Jan 27, 2012, 11:02 PM // 23:02

I see a lot of people bashing the 7Hero PSupport build in here yet I'm not seeing any counter-suggestions for Casters.

Rojway seems to be the popular alternative for melee but for a Ritualist nothing seems to be leading the pack.

I'm using the 7H build atm with a SoS Rit as the player, hero rit is SoGM and three mesmers. Rest is normal.

mortenya · Jan 27, 2012, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritbot

I see a lot of people bashing the 7Hero PSupport build in here yet I'm not seeing any counter-suggestions for Casters.

i don't think i've really ever seen anyone post an alternative that was actively bashing the current meta builds. they just say it's crap and anyone who runs it is crap, but don't offer any alternatives.

personally, i'm playing through with a rit, since it's the cool thing to do right now, and i'm using the basics from 7HPS, just i make tweaks here and there to fit what i want in.

my ranger, para, dervish do things a little differently, but their teams don't work for my rit or ele.

Jeydra · Jan 28, 2012, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritbot

I see a lot of people bashing the 7Hero PSupport build in here yet I'm not seeing any counter-suggestions for Casters.

Rojway seems to be the popular alternative for melee but for a Ritualist nothing seems to be leading the pack.

I'm using the 7H build atm with a SoS Rit as the player, hero rit is SoGM and three mesmers. Rest is normal.

I've posted a couple for Ele primary:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=14
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10447337.html
And in the screenshot(s) in the history thread.

7HPS is an inferior teambuild, end of story.

Jeydra · Feb 02, 2012, 03:00 PM // 15:00

I swear in the search for the ultimate teambuild my teams are looking more and more like SDM. In fact the latest variant I have includes two Discord Necros, and the best choice of 7 heroes appear to be 2 Rits + 3 Necs + 2 Mesmers. This isn't looking good for Elementalists despite the Elementalist update; the nerf to Invoke Lightning simply hit Air Magic (and by extension Elementalists in general) too hard. Oh well.

enter_the_zone · Feb 02, 2012, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Reading these forums, it's amazing how many people don't seem to understand the entire concept of minions and spirits. The idea isn't to be super-fast, it's to be super-resilient, primarily by aggro control.

Discord can have fairly decent spammable AOE damage via Death Nova and Deathly Swarm while having ridiculous single target spike ability and bar compression for utility. For most HM content it's a ridiculously solid build which packs plenty of punch and allows a number of "empty" (or at least non-contributing) slots, useful for VQing the same crap on multiple accounts at the same time.

Put it this way, a genius build that is 30% or even 50% faster but needs all 8 slots, is still slower than discordway for those who have multiple accounts because we'll be doing that content again and again.

Yeah, it's not going to beat DoA or whatever, but that's what other gimmick team builds are for.

EFGJack · Feb 02, 2012, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

Reading these forums, it's amazing how many people don't seem to understand the entire concept of minions and spirits. The idea isn't to be super-fast, it's to be super-resilient, primarily by aggro control.

I believe that the people who overlook the damage prevention that minions and spirits provide are doing it on purpose as they're well aware of that hidden protection, and that they also are a little above the average joe in terms of skill, and therefore do not have any need for additional resiliency and thus sacrifice survivability for speed, even if it means that they have to press more than two buttons a vanquish.

But that's just my take on the issue anyhow.